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Risin
Slættaratindur 2. Juni 2007
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on December 06 2021 18:28:00
Now would you have posted this, if it wasn't your idol that came out on top? |
on December 06 2021 19:15:40
Two issues with the calculation:
1) The very first round, if Messi now wins the French title with PSG, he will leap-frog CR7 because of the multiplication factor (x1.5) for having now won in two countries, that leap-frog will be enough to push him past CR7 overall. CR7 won't be able to gain a similar advantage, as he has already won trophies with Man Utd. That Messi's pawltry contribution to PSG this season should have such a high impact does not bode well for the model used.
2) This is actually something that I find to be much more problematic: The initial field is only those who have won the Ballon d'Or twice, essentially a popularity contest, while the rounds are based heavily on titles won, cups won and so on, there are 2 players who would stand out, but have not been included because they didn't win the popularity contest (since they were not attackers): Xavi and Dani Alves.
Xavi has 32 trophies, with his 9 league titles in two countries, 4 national cups, 4 champions league wins, 2 club world cups, 2 Euro wins and 1 World Cup win leaves both CR7 and Messi in his wake on all those wins. Particularly his 2x Euro, 1x World Cup is something they cannot match.
Dani Alves has outright won more trophies than any other player in history, at 43 trophies, and has done so in 4 different countries (so x3,375 multiplier), as well as having won 2 Copa America, 3 club world cups, 2 confederations cups, all which would put him pretty damn high on that list, and at least bring down some of the stats for certain players (CR7) in some of the rounds.
Now is Dani Alves the best player of all time? Nobody would claim that, but including him in the rounds would bring down the points scored by CR7, and would lead to another player coming out on top, i.e. that math model was quite subjective, as its starting population was based on a popularity contest, and then focused heavily on things such as trophies won. Why the initial field of players wasn't based on trophies won instead? Set a benchmark at 25 trophies to thin the field if needed - no need to include everyone except the trophyless Harry Kane. |
on December 08 2021 09:40:00
1) Or maybe it just shows how close the two are
2) You're right, but you have to narrow the field somehow. Ballon d'Or is notorious but you could argue that to be branded the GOAT you would have to have had won a popularity contest. Most trophies can be misleading as some players just happen to be playing for the right team at the right time, and Dani Alves has been very lucky in his career (not to take anything away from his contributions).
There is certainly a striker bias in these discussions, but all the contenders have been more than just strikers, they have play-making skills creativity, etc., and you could argue that only these individuals could be considered GOAT.
People often mention R9 in these discussions, but we'll never know what he could have accomplished had he not been made of glass. The fact that CR7 has had a fucked up knee for 6-7 years, which forced him to play more as a poacher, and still managed to rack up some of the most impressive stats in history is even more reason to consider him the GOAT... |
on December 08 2021 13:57:43
I always find these topics very boring and inconclusive. There are no rules only guidelines. And what is the point of it all excactly? Just another stick to poke your mates with?
Footballer is too broad a term. You are by default excluding all the goalkeepers and defenders. Isn't that a big part of football? Do you even have to win trophies to be great? It's like having a discussion about the best martial artist. Is it Mohammed Ali, Hulk Hogan, Jon Jones or Bruce Lee? |
on December 08 2021 14:35:20
you could argue that only these individuals could be considered GOAT.
I can argue that Xavi has been of equal influence as Messi just fine.
He was the playmaker for Barce during his whole tenure, with Messi and Iniesta (two absolute world class players) as his understudies, he won the CL with Barca before Messi played, he won the CL with Barca while Messi played along side him, but Messi NEVER won the CL without Xavi. He was the playmaker for a Spanish national team that won the Euro in 2008, the World Cup in 2010 and the Euro in 2012. Neither Messi nor CR7 come close to his national team achievements, and he wasn't just some random player on that team, but the central playmaker, yet since he didn't win the journalistic popularity contest he isn't even included in the starting field.
I can also argue just fine that Zidane is equally as influential as CR7 (and R9), yet he only won the Ballon d'Or once and therefore wasn't included. However he won the FIFA World Player of the Year 3 times and was the player of the decade for the 00's. Titles in two countries (Italy and Spain), cups in 3 countries (France, Italy and Spain), won the World Cup and the Euro, and was one odd overtime event (and a crazy Buffon save) from winning two world cups. He won the CL, the intercontinetal cup, the UEFA super cup, so he also has trophies to back up his individual accolades, but since he is missing that 2nd Ballon d'Or for some reason he isn't even included in the calculation. |
on December 09 2021 14:55:38
but Messi NEVER won the CL without Xavi
Sounds like you're arguing why Messi is not the GOAT...
I agree with you both. |
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