| Grizlas | Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Denmark | | Joined: 08.06.06 | | Posted on 26-05-2007 03:42 |
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I know some of you are going to sigh at this topic, because you remember how often you have discussed the topic of abortion in the past without any result whatsoever.
All the same, I think its important to keep discussing all subjects - especially ones where the sides seem hopelessly entrenched - because I have this irrational hope that all minds can be changed, no matter how impossible it seems.
Since the law is basically a set of exceptions to what is legal, I feel that the burden of proof lies with those who are of the opinion that something should be made illegal. If, for instance, I would want whistling to be illegal, I would have to make a case for it, i.e. the burden of proof would lie with me.
Based on this reasoning, I ask:
Why Shouldn't abortion be completely legal?
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You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing? |
Edited by Grizlas on 26-05-2007 03:43 |
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| Norlander | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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There is no reason why abortion shouldn't be completely legal, a woman has every right to have FULL control of her own body.
Now there may be several unfortunate effects from abortions, psycological and otherwise, and it is sad to take life, but again...every human being has every right to have FULL control of their own body.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.
- John Kenneth Galbraith |
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| OKJones | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Argir | | Joined: 12.06.06 | | Posted on 26-05-2007 09:05 |
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I am not against it beeing copletely legal, because I have a stance in this matter and I know what I would do. But I'm probably not going to be the best judge of somebody else's life, if they are going to take an abortion or not, cause having a child will change your life completely.
I have considered abortion once. I thought to myself that life would be so much more difficult, hard and it "the child" would probably be a burden, I thought I was too young and basically all the excuses you can come up with in desperate times. But I didn't think about it too much. Abortion to me is ending of a life, and I am not going to end someone's life for my own sake. Having a child is a blessing in disguise, and I really mean that.
Under different circumstances e.g. rape, I really don't think that you can have a qualified opinion on the ethics of this if you aren't the one in the situation. In these circumstances there probably will be unfortunate effects, psychological and otherwise, whatever the choice.
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Why would I want to end every post the same way? |
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| Roffen | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Copenhagen | | Joined: 12.11.06 | | Posted on 26-05-2007 13:41 |
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I suppose most people against free abortion is mostly based on a religious point of view. I can't imagine any other reason for being against that a person shouldn't be able to decide what is best for him or her.
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| Vuzman | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Copenhagen, DK | | Joined: 10.06.06 | | Posted on 26-05-2007 14:44 |
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What do you mean when you say "take life" or "ending a life"?
In order to talk about this subject you need to define "life" and when exactly this "life" comes into existence.
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When I kill her, I'll have her
Die white girls, die white girls |
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| OKJones | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Argir | | Joined: 12.06.06 | | Posted on 26-05-2007 15:37 |
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I mean excactly ending of a life, how do you want me to describe it?
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Why would I want to end every post the same way? |
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| Torellion | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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To state the obvious: I guess the trouble lies in the definition of 'a life'
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| OKJones | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Argir | | Joined: 12.06.06 | | Posted on 27-05-2007 00:47 |
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To state the obious: Life can not end before it has begun
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Why would I want to end every post the same way? |
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| Grizlas | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Denmark | | Joined: 08.06.06 | | Posted on 27-05-2007 01:19 |
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I think what people are trying to say Okjones, is that life becomes life at some point. With regards to humans, the question is, when does a fetus become a person? most agree that that happens sometime between intercourse and birth. At what stage in this interval do you think life is created?
This question is important to answer, since it determines when abortion can be considered murder. We all agree that killing a 5 year old would be murder, but we also agree that having sex with a condom cannot be murder.
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You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing? |
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| Norlander | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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Personally I think that a fetus becomes a person when it is able to live outside it's mothers vomb...which is a bit fluid definition I know, but if something cannot live on it's own in a NICU then it for sure isn't a seperate entity and therefore not a person.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.
- John Kenneth Galbraith |
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| Norlander | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Copenhagen | | Joined: 09.06.06 | | Posted on 27-05-2007 03:22 |
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Aparently that wikipedia article claims:
"Neonatology and NICUs have greatly increased the survival of very low birth weight and extremely premature infants. In the era before NICUs, infants of birth weight less than 1400 grams (3 lb, usually about 30 weeks gestation) rarely survived. Today, infants of 500 grams at 26 weeks have a fair chance of survival."
So I assume somewhere around the 26 weeks mark a fetus goes from being a part of the mother to a seperate entity - a person.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.
- John Kenneth Galbraith |
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| OKJones | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Argir | | Joined: 12.06.06 | | Posted on 27-05-2007 12:03 |
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I think what people are trying to say Okjones, is that life becomes life at some point So what you are saying is that in a pregnancy life does not start immediately, when does it start 2-3-4 months in to the pregnancy?
With regards to humans, the question is, when does a fetus become a person? How do you define the two? When are you not a person?
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Why would I want to end every post the same way? |
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| Grizlas | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Denmark | | Joined: 08.06.06 | | Posted on 27-05-2007 15:24 |
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@OKJones
When does a pregnancy start? the moment you're done fucking? or some time between then later? You are starting with the thomsen approach of asking questions instead of answering them and it will get us nowhere. If you want I'll answer your new questions, but please try to answer those posed to you.
So what you are saying is that in a pregnancy life does not start immediately, when does it start 2-3-4 months in to the pregnancy?
If we use my definition of life (as being the difference between a fetus and a person) then I think that a fetus is definetly NOT a person during the first month of the pregnancy.
How do you define the two? When are you not a person?
By person I mean when does the fetus become evolved enough to have consciousness? When does the fetus begin to differentiate itself from all the other living organisms we have no problem killing, like ants and brain-dead humans on respirators? Again I dont know exactly when this happens, but I do know for sure that it has not happened 1 second after the sperm has fertilized the egg and neither 1 month into the pregnancy.
Now that this has been explained to you, maybe you'll be able to answer the question of what you understand life to be and when you believe it begins.
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You want to tempt the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing? |
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| OKJones | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Argir | | Joined: 12.06.06 | | Posted on 27-05-2007 23:16 |
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Like you Griz, I don't know when life begins, probably isn't 1 second after you're done fucking. But with an abortion you are preventing life.
Norlander:So I assume somewhere around the 26 weeks mark a fetus goes from being a part of the mother to a seperate entity - a person.
Well, unborn babies might feel pain as early as 20 weeks and almost certainly by week 24, don't agree with you on this one.
Grizlas: By person I mean when does the fetus become evolved enough to have consciousness? You can't prove consciousness, so it's hard to say, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a neurologist.
Grizlas: When does the fetus begin to differentiate itself from all the other living organisms we have no problem killing, like ants and brain-dead humans on respirators? I'm not so sure that it would be so easy for lets say a woman who has been married for many years to just turn off her brain-dead husband. She won't be thinking of him as a fucking vegetable.
Are brain-dead humans not catagorised as persons? Ants aren't.
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Why would I want to end every post the same way? |
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| Torellion | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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Like you Griz, I don't know when life begins, probably isn't 1 second after you're done fucking. But with an abortion you are preventing life.
I don't think this is valid because there are plenty of things we do that prevent life. For instance, I am somewhat sure you don't think condom should be anything less than completely legal.
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| OKJones | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Argir | | Joined: 12.06.06 | | Posted on 28-05-2007 11:03 |
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The beauty of the condom is that you throw it away when you're done, much easier than having an abortion, and you probably won't need to see a shrink for throwing the condom away.
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Why would I want to end every post the same way? |
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| Celdar | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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It is a bit late to wade into this, but I shall throw in some points or observations anyway.
By person I mean when does the fetus become evolved enough to have consciousness?
One thing here is that consciousnes is a difficult thing to define - I've read a book that suggested that consciousnes as in the idea of "ME" doesn't develop until much later - even after birth. I have no idea, I'm just pointing out that the idea of consciousnes is unlikely to provide an answer.
When does the fetus begin to differentiate itself from all the other living organisms we have no problem killing, like ants and brain-dead humans on respirators?
Does the idea of potential have a space in this discussion? Much in the way of implied odds in poker (plug!), can we just regard what we have in front of us and disregard what it will/may become? I.e is a fetus a "human in the making" or a lump of cells? Obviously everyone agrees that at some point a change of "state" occurs. In my mind we have to take this into account.
I guess the same idea applies to parenthood. If we regard a baby for what it practically is then it is of no use to anyone - it is a drain on resource. Obviously what counts is what it will become. You as a parent are responsible for this little person even to the detriment of yourself.
There is no reason why abortion shouldn't be completely legal, a woman has every right to have FULL control of her own body.
I can see why people say this... but surely there has to be a BUT to this sentence. At some point the parent (mother I guess) must acquire some responsibility for the fetus, whether she likes it or not - when should this be?
Anyways, to answer the original question I definately do NOT think that abortion should be completely legal - At the very least should it be illegal anytime after a fetus is capable of survival (aided or unaided).
I beleive that it is legal to abort as late as 32 weeks in some places?
I can not say that abortion should be illegal (rape and such things complicate things lots unfortunately 
In my mind this discussion is more about.
1: When does "life" start?
2: When do competing rights become equal? (Mother's against fetus's)
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| Vuzman | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Copenhagen, DK | | Joined: 10.06.06 | | Posted on 29-05-2007 09:52 |
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Personally I think that a fetus becomes a person when it is able to live outside it's mothers vomb...
In a NICU... What happens when we become better at this? When we are able to stuff a few cells into an artificial womb and feed it through an artificial umbilical cord and grow it into a full-grown, NICU-independent infant? This is not just a fluid threshold, it's a receding one.
By person I mean when does the fetus become evolved enough to have consciousness?
Is that the definition of a person? Do we really need the concept of personhood in this discussion? I think not. An infant is not conscious in the regard that it is aware that it is an entity in itself, this comes somewhat later, around 18 months after birth. Consciousness is probably not something you'd want to factor into this, as many animals achieve this, and having to suffer the consequences of your own argument would really bum you out.
When does the fetus begin to differentiate itself from all the other living organisms we have no problem killing, like ants and brain-dead humans on respirators?
You people seem to have no problem with killing highly evolved and intelligent beings, so I guess this would put the abortion limit some time between 2-5 years after birth.
I'm not so sure that it would be so easy for lets say a woman who has been married for many years to just turn off her brain-dead husband.
If I'm constipated and it's not easy for me to go to the toilet, does that make it wrong? I'm sorry, what?
The beauty of the condom is that you throw it away when you're done, much easier than having an abortion, and you probably won't need to see a shrink for throwing the condom away.
So... convenience should be the determining factor of right and wrong?
Does the idea of potential have a space in this discussion?
The potential for a cell to become a human being? With our advances in cloning and other technologies, every human cell bears this potential.
If we include potential into this discussion I would argue that birth control should be as "potential destroyers". Pills, condoms, premature withdrawal/ejaculation all potentially destroy a human being. In fact, breast feeding is contraceptive! And what should we do about all those snobby women who refuse to "give it up"?
When do competing rights become equal?
"Rights" is a difficult issue. What about the right not to be born? What about the right to be raised with love and care? Maybe it is in the fetus' best interest not to be born.
when does a fetus become a person? most agree that that happens sometime between intercourse and birth.
Well, I would argue that it is more complicated than that. It would be nice if there was some magic moment where life arose out of nothing, but that is not the case.
*sex* -> The (live) sperm cell has just been ejaculated. It cannot yet fertilize the egg, but shortly after ejaculation a biochemical event happens, and fertilization is possible. The sperm meets with the egg and the two live cells fuse. There are several biochemical and physical events that happen in this process. The result is a diploid cell called a zygote. Contrary to common perception, no miracle has occured, and this cell is not equal to a human being. This cell begins to divide (cells tend to do that), and when there are about 70-100 cells the cell mass has divided into an inner and an outer mass. This is called a blastocyst. The cell mass then becomes implanted within the uterus, at which point pregnancy officially begins. The cell mass then starts to form an orientation and divide into three different layers. It is not until this point that the genetic code of the father becomes fully involved in the development of the embryo. Also, until this point the cell mass may divide (this usually becomes twins). If you fucked a monkey, this is the point where that cell mass would die (!, fetus?, abort?).Even if the cell mass reaches this point, most of these pregnancies will result in miscarriages, spontaneous abortions (I call them God's Abortions as they're obviously proof that God approves of abortion).
Please realize that there is no magic moment, even though there are a series of crucial moments, and that this life does not come from nothing, it comes from life.
( Also, I believe that it is self-evident that an argument does not gain credulence just because "most people agree on it"; in fact I would probably assume the opposite  )
PS: Abortion is completely legal, if not completely free (Just a stab at the headline)
PPS: Seriously... 
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When I kill her, I'll have her
Die white girls, die white girls |
Edited by Vuzman on 29-05-2007 10:47 |
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| Torellion | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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Basically what I would have written if I wasn't so lazy 
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| OKJones | RE: Why should abortion be completely legal? |
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| | Location: Argir | | Joined: 12.06.06 | | Posted on 29-05-2007 12:29 |
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The beauty of the condom is that you throw it away when you're done, much easier than having an abortion, and you probably won't need to see a shrink for throwing the condom away.
So... convenience should be the determining factor of right and wrong?
I don't know should it? Most abortions are convenience related.
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Why would I want to end every post the same way? |
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